I was disappointed by it. There were some very good laughs, but they spent far too much screen time on the actual races, which just weren't funny. The sponsor stuff also fell flat. Some bad casting too - Michael Duncan Clarke isn't cut out for comedy, I have never found Jack McBrayer funny, and Amy Adams was criminally underused. And judging from the outtakes and the trailers I've seen on TV, they appear to have deleted some of the funniest scenes.
Brandon — Sun, 4/22/07 4:17am
Watched it a second time this weekend and had pretty much the same reaction - about 12-15 good laughs surrounded by a lot of dead spots. My disappointment was lessened this time simply by lowered expectations, but I'd still put it at about 2.5 stars (I went 3 on Netflix, since they won't give me a half-star option, the bastards!).
I stand by my comments on the races, the sponsors and the casting of MDC. As for McBrayer, I can no longer say I've never found him funny, but that's only because someone finally found the absolute perfect character for his one-note talent. I mean, seriously, go back and watch Talladega Nights again and tell me that's not Kenneth minus the superior writing!
TN's a perfectly serviceable comedy (most comedies would kill for 12-15 laughs), but unfortunately one that has to live in the shadow of Anchorman's greatness. And do not disparage Anchorman's greatness, or I will fight you. I will fight you all like a wild, rabid bear! And it will be glorious in all its ursine magnificence!!
In all seriousness though, I stand by my conviction that Anchorman is the best comedy of the last nine years. I say nine because if I went ten, then I'd have to give the nod to The Big Lebowski.
Bee Boy — Sun, 4/22/07 9:25am
We all got burned by this one. (I saw it with friends who were more forgiving; when everyone around you is laughing 25-30 times, you forget there are only 12-15 good laughs. Also, I love Jane Lynch.) But don't let that discourage you from eventually Netflixing Blades of Glory.
It features almost no dead spots at all, a truly workable story amidst the craziness, and – with the exception of Amy Poehler – a magnificent and thoroughly funny cast. I'd trade ninety Jenna Fischers for one Amy Adams, but she's still fantastic. (The fact that that number is in the double-digits and not the trillions should tell you all you need to know.) And Jon Heder, whom I have detested almost as deeply as those mock-ironic "Vote for Pedro" shirts, was really great.
It does include one moment where everyone flies off into the sky in a bizarre and wholly unnecessary twist of fantasy, which reminded me of the one eye-rolling moment of Anchorman (with the unicorn). But otherwise, quite solid compared with what you might expect.
Joe Mulder — Mon, 4/23/07 1:19pm
Anchorman over The 40-Year-Old Virgin? Oh, Brandon, you know I've long respected your comedic chops, but, that has to be the funniest thing you've ever written. Anchorman over The 40-Year-Old Virgin... stop! You're killing me!
I could probably list 20 other comedies in just the last five years that compare favorably with Anchorman, too.
Well, 10.
In fact, give me 24 hours; I'll be back.
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 2:19pm
I had a feeling this might happen...
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 3:00pm
I know no one asked – and Joe's list will be the more interesting one – but on a whim I consulted the database. Since 2001, I've seen 54 movies I liked as much or more than Anchorman (at the time; there are myriad reasons why this is an imperfect system). Of those, here are the comedies – favorite on top:
Secretary (black comedy is still comedy)
Lucky Number Slevin*
Borat
Reno 911!: Miami
I ♥ Huckabees (weird, existential comedy is still comedy)
Kiss Kiss Bang Bang*
Smokin' Aces*
The OH in Ohio
The 40-Year-Old Virgin
Big Trouble
A Mighty Wind
Little Miss Sunshine
*-Is action-comedy still comedy?
I liked Anchorman more than Joe did. (My exasperation for the "frat pack" is still evaluated case-by-case on each individual movie.) I'm relatively certain he liked Anchorman as much as I liked Sideways, and vice versa. (Sideways is the first comedy on my list that fell below Anchorman.) It's probably second on his list after The 40-Year-Old Virgin (and it should be; it was great). Also, I'm more forgiving of things like Lucky Number Slevin – which, if I were rating it again today, would likely drop 5 points or so. Joe's list is indisputably the "real" list.
All that aside, what interests me is how few comedy comedy comedies are on the list. Which in turn reminds me how few there have been lately. I'm referring to something like Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. Could you deny that was a comedy? It leeched comedy out of every frame. It wasn't a comedy-slash-anything; comedy was its first, last, and only reason for existing. But, Borat? Well, it's sort of improvised satire-comedy with a reality edge. As is A Mighty Wind, albeit with a completely different reality and edge. For better or worse, that's what the Stiller/Ferrell/Wilsons team is doing: bringing back the old-school comedy. (Admittedly, it was never absent. It was just real real bad, e.g., Are We Done Yet? or anything with Jamie Kennedy.) So, despite the fact that Along Came Polly or – literally – Old School fall into their oeuvre, we still have them to thank because otherwise there'd be no Anchorman or 40-Year-Old Virgin and we'd see a hell of a lot less of Paul Rudd. (Which would be a criminal, criminal shame.)
Joe Mulder — Mon, 4/23/07 3:43pm
[W]hat interests me is how few comedy comedy comedies are on the list.
First of all: very good and interesting point.
Second of all, I'm thinking mainly about comedies from the last five years that that you could go to war with vs. Anchorman, not even necessarily movies I liked better. Anchorman certainly has a quotability factor that makes it tough to beat, but, was it really that good? I'm not convinced. So my list (which may well turn out to be far less definitive than Jameson's) may contain movies that I actually liked less than Anchorman but were more significant (like, in my opinion, Borat), and it may even contain movies I didn't see.
And I can't possibly give any ground on The 40-Year-Old Virgin, though.
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 4:24pm
Very good point about the quotability factor, etc. When composing my list, I thought, "Where the hell is Wet Hot American Summer?" Well, it's a few points further down the list. My guess is, as much as I love most of it, in the end it fails to really come together, so its rating is in the high 70s while its comedy rating is easily much higher. (As I said, myriad reasons.)
I can't possibly give any ground on The 40-Year-Old Virgin, though.
This is one of those situations that "agree to disagree" was invented for. (Feel free to disagree.) I'm imagining setting up a little experiment: get ten reasonable, English-speaking, relatively perceptive people who have seen both movies but never met Joe or Brandon. Have them hang out with Joe and Brandon together for at least five hours. Then ask them to pick which movie is favored by which guy. If fewer than eight people get the right answers, I'll sit through the entire Click DVD twice (regular and commentary).
My point is, these particular movies burrow directly into the comedy souls of the two gentlemen in question. Thus, you can both, in your own worlds, be absolutely, incontrovertibly right – and in each other's worlds, be entirely wrong. The comedy universe easily supports both viewpoints.
I doubt this comes a surprise to anyone, of course. And I still look forward to the Joe list.
(Off-topic – actually, back on the original topic, but thus... off-topic):
No discussion of Talladega Nights would be complete without a nod to Reilly's performance during the song that Jack Black and Will Ferrell performed at this year's Oscars. It was a brilliant song – more so because it made an excellent point about comedy's exclusion from the awards – but without Talladega Nights, it would have lacked the punch of its pinnacle of brilliance. Reilly, emerging from the audience in song:
I didn't cry the blues
I didn't pick silly fights
I chose to be in both Boogie-
And Talladega Nights!
So, +5 to Talladega Nights for that.
Brandon — Mon, 4/23/07 4:54pm
I could probably list 20 other comedies in just the last five years that compare favorably with Anchorman, too.
Well, 10.
Now now, we both know that will never happen. Three comedies, that's possible. Seven comedies, there's an outside chance. But ten comedies? I'd like to see that! (End channeling of Mr. Burns)
There's much I'd like to add to this discussion, but I'm late in getting some lunch. I'll be back.
Joe Mulder — Mon, 4/23/07 5:25pm
It's early yet, but, the list of "Comedies of the Last Five Years Which I'd Take Into Battle Against 'Anchorman,' In Terms of Staying Power, Impact on the Culture and Overall Good/Bad Reviews, Leaving How Much I Actually Liked the Movie Completely Out of the Equation" is looking pretty small. I may have to concede an early skirmish to Brandon on this point (or, I may have to lift my self-imposed five year rule and open it up to the entire post-Lebowski era).
Plus, anyone's free to prefer Anchorman over The 40 Year-Old Virgin if they have the misfortune to have been born with such bizarre sensibilities; I'm saying that by any standard other than subjective personal preference, it's not even close.
(and maybe Brandon was only talking about subjective personal preference)
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 5:34pm
Reminds me of the great Norm MacDonald (and how thrilled was I to watch him slap Ethan Suplee's chubby doofus Scientologist face?):
"Ten great things about you, Danny? Sure, I can easily name five great things about you. Here are two great things about you: the one great thing about you is..."
It's beginning to look like I'll be ringside for some wild, rabid bear-fighting!
Brandon — Mon, 4/23/07 8:04pm
*-Is action-comedy still comedy?
I'm inclined to say no, just because comedy is the second word in that hyphenate.
All that aside, what interests me is how few comedy comedy comedies are on the list. For better or worse, that's what the Stiller/Ferrell/Wilsons team is doing: bringing back the old-school comedy.
I think these are excellent insights, and ones that I wish I had made first. Though for me, it's less about the Frat Pack and more about the Second City Pack of Fey/McKay/Carrell, who have all done a great job of bringing that SC sensibility to the comedy mainstream without losing anything about what makes it so great. I'm particularly enamored with McKay - I've been drinking that Kool-Aid since 1995 - which is one of the reasons why Anchorman is like a dog whistle crafted specifically for my ears (I realize that doesn't quite work, but you get what I'm saying).
Then ask them to pick which movie is favored by which guy. If fewer than eight people get the right answers, I'll sit through the entire Click DVD twice (regular and commentary).
I'd be willing to make that bet too. This disagreement doesn't surprise me at all. I sensed a great disturbance in The Joe Force the minute I hit "Post Comments" Saturday night.
(and maybe Brandon was only talking about subjective personal preference)
Yes and no. Certainly, Anchorman gets my post-Lebowski vote on personal preference. But I also admire its craft. Does The 40 Year-Old Virgin accomplish more in terms of character and story? Absolutely. I won't dispute that at all. I've even admitted to Jameson in an email that he probably still has in his possession (dated 9/5/05, JS) that Virgin is a better film. But that last word, to me, is the key. It's a better film, but not a better comedy. (Which may just cause both of you to throw up your hands and walk away at this point; I wouldn't blame you.)
I just think Anchorman is the funnier of the two. Not by a great margin; which is an important distinction to note here - it's not like I put Anchorman #1 in the last nine years and Virgin is 12th. It's more like 1 and 1a. But if you're asking me which one made me laugh harder and more often, it's Anchorman by a nose.
And honestly, that's my main criteria for a comedy. When I sit down to watch a comedy, the thing I want most is for it to make me laugh. I can certainly admire and appreciate the skill it takes to develop character and tell a story that makes sense while making me laugh, but in the end, it just doesn't do it for me at the same level. This is why I love The Simpsons, this is why I love 30 Rock, this is why I love The Big Lebowski and Raising Arizona. And this is why I love Anchorman. I'm partial to cartoony over three-dimensional. I prefer static characters to ones that go through a lot of growth. I realize this is veering back into personal preference territory. Oops.
Back to comedy. From a pure comedy-to-the-exclusion-of-all-else standpoint, I think Anchorman beats Virgin. Again, by a very narrow margin. I'll admit this is flying by the seat of my pants logic, but given that story and character are pretty vital parts of storytelling, there's something kind of thrilling about a movie that can say "Yeah, we're not gonna worry about that" and not die on the vine by the 60-minute mark (especially when so many others do). I think successfully not doing those things takes as much skill as doing them. Because without them, you have simply got to be flat-out fucking funny; that's all you have left.
That's all I got right now. Let the picking apart begin in 3... 2... 1...
Brandon — Mon, 4/23/07 8:07pm
Also, I'm looking slightly more forward to this than I am to this. Though it's very possible I'll change my tune based on the awesomeness of Seth Rogen.
Joe Mulder — Mon, 4/23/07 8:47pm
I understand what Brandon is saying, but, by his standard, I'd be forced to say that 90 Straight Minutes of Nothing But Crotch Hits, if it existed, was the greatest comedy of all time.
"Anchorman made me laugh harder so therefore it's superior as a comedy movie"? I certainly understand that, but, I had no idea that was where we were coming from. In that case, it's all subjective and I will be able to find no movies, post-Lebowski, that I'd put up against Anchorman.
But that doesn't mean I won't have a list going at some point.
Also, Norm? Sweet! I haven't watched any of last Thursday's stuff (except "Survivor") because I was out of town this weekend for a wedding (Gemelke's), so between Schmuck's Bait and Norm Macdonald, it's going to be one hell of a Monday Comedy Night Done Right!
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 9:01pm
I'm looking slightly more forward to [2008's Step Brothers] than I am to [this summer's Knocked Up]. Though it's very possible I'll change my tune based on the awesomeness of Seth Rogen.
I think the awesomeness of each of Katherine Heigl's individual breasts would probably have something to say about that. I get the distinct impression Joe has already decided he'll like Knocked Upeven more than he liked The 40-Year-Old Virgin and – given the footage we've seen so far – I'm not inclined to argue. Good luck with that one.
I've found the comedy chemistry between Ferrell and John C. Reilly to be the least hilarious of any of his co-stars to date (possible exception: Chris Kattan). So I regard Step Brothers with skepticism, for now.
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 9:26pm
I'm inclined to say no [action-comedy isn't comedy]
I figured as much, which is a relief because I struggled with Ocean's Eleven and the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. Defensibly action-comedies but just as easily categorized in action-adventure.
I'd agree that, generally, one can't get into wild rabid bear mode defending the overall quality of a comedy based specifically on what made them personally laugh the hardest. However, one's personal tastes will tint one's appreciation of all other elements of that movie. And, in an is-my-orange-your-purple sense, if a particular movie happens to synch up exactly with one's personal comic sensibilities, it creates a perfect storm – that comedy is going to seem better overall to the person it appeals to. Brandon, by his own admission, smells what Ferrell/McKay are cooking. This is what I was trying to get at before.
The 40-Year-Old Virgin gets its laughs from real-life emotions, relatable hang-ups and neuroses, and a bunch of regular guys sitting around talking about shit. If we were nominating an Olympic Regular Guys Sitting Around Talking About Shit team, I would send Joe – and he would win many gold medals. Brandon and I also appreciate this, of course, but it's not hard-wired in our DNA (to borrow a thoroughly meaningless term from TV blowhards).
The laughs in Anchorman stem from a zany, stentorian, bloviating egotist – a completely outsized character who blurts out absurd rants and generally makes an ass of himself. (No, I'm not going to say that's what Brandon is like.) Brandon is a student of comedy and his keen sense of timing and delivery make some jokes predictable. Absurd non-sequiturs like those in Anchorman surprise his comedy detector, and get a bigger laugh. Joe and I also love this, of course, but sometimes those laughs seem "too easy." "Manatee jokes" as the Family Guy writing team has come to call their quickie cutaway gags, adopting the name from the South Park episode which lampooned their seemingly randomized approach.
If you're a manatee guy who loves movie comedies for their larger-than-life characters who do and say things that are funnier than real life because they'd never happen in real life, Anchorman is the perfect storm. If you're more into jokes you can relate to, laughs that you could have hanging out with friends and family, humor that reflects some element of your own life, The 40-Year-Old Virgin is the perfect storm. And in that situation, it's all but impossible to be completely objective.
Brandon — Mon, 4/23/07 11:57pm
Wow. Thanks for detailing the viewpoints in such a lucid fashion. Nicely done.
Joe and I also love this, of course, but sometimes those laughs seem "too easy."
I think this gets really close to the heart of the matter. I enjoyed that episode of South Park, but I'm also of the opinion that the "manatee joke" - and that's not quite what they do in Anchorman, but we'll roll with it for now - doesn't get the respect it should. Done well, it's not that easy. Recent seasons of Family Guy and even recent seasons of The Simpsons have illustrated this - there's a lot of trying and failing going on. It's a talent and a skill; if you can't agree with that, then we're definitely not going to see eye-to-eye on this whole thing.
So for me, making Anchorman takes as much talent and skill as it does to make The 40 Year-Old Virgin. Different talents and skill sets, but both admirable. I just happen to value the Anchorman skill set a little bit more.
I understand what Brandon is saying, but, by his standard, I'd be forced to say that 90 Straight Minutes of Nothing But Crotch Hits, if it existed, was the greatest comedy of all time.
If it existed in the context of a scripted, filmed comedy, then sure. I have little doubt that McKay/Ferrell or the Coen Brothers could make an all-crotch joke movie that would knock my socks off.
Bee Boy — Tue, 4/24/07 8:14am
Oh, I love the manatee jokes. It wasn't my intent to diminish either approach, only to illustrate the fine differences. And you're absolutely right – it's not easy to do well. But, as you said: 1 and 1a. It's those tiny fluctuations of preference that make the subjectivity/objectivity line so hard to find. Anyone can distinguish between 1 and 12.
I'll give your crotch hits movie a try, but I'm still not going to see NutsSaw!.
Brandon — Tue, 4/24/07 4:56pm
Speaking of Norm's appearance on My Name is Earl and crotch hits, I finally watched last week's episode, and I don't think I've ever simultaneously laughed and gone fetal with sympathetic pain so many times in one half-hour period.
Joe Mulder — Tue, 4/24/07 8:57pm
Okay.
Here's the list.
First, the comedies that, regardless of how much I liked them or how much I liked Anchorman, I'd take into battle against Anchorman if my life depended on it. As for the standard I'm using, think of it this way: say Anchorman is Robin Yount. Now say any other movie is any other baseball player. Now say I'm trying to decide which one of those players, Robin Yount or the other guy, is more deserving to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
If my life depended on it, I feel like I could make a pretty good case for the following deserving induction into the "Comedies From 2002-2007 Hall of Fame" before we let in Anchorman (assuming we do let in Anchorman. Which I do assume). Some of these movies I didn't even like, certainly not as much as Anchorman, but, that's not even what I'm judging by anymore. Here they are (in alphabetical order; an asterisk means I didn't actually see the movie):
The 40 Year-Old Virgin (2005)
Borat (2006)
The Devil Wears Prada (2006)*
Little Miss Sunshine (2006)
My Big Fat Greek Wedding (2002)*
Napoleon Dynamite (2004)
Old School (2003)
School of Rock (2003)
Shaun of the Dead (2004)
Sideways (2004)
Wedding Crashers (2005)
Not as big a list as I'd thought I might come up with. Here's the ones I'd put just below Anchorman on the same list (again alphabetical):
About a Boy (2003)
About Schmidt (2003)
Bad Santa (2003)*
Barbershop (2002)
Dodgeball (2004)
Harold & Kumar Go To White Castle (2004)
Hitch (2005)* [I debated about including this one, but, it was a huge mainstream hit and launched Kevin James's movie career, which could have far-reaching implications]
A Mighty Wind (2003)
Team America: World Police (2004)
Here's a partial list of comedies I personally prefer to Anchorman over that period of time (plenty of the ones on the above lists fall into that category as well), but that I wouldn't consider in Anchorman's league in a Hall of Fame voting kind of way:
50 First Dates (2004)
The Ladykillers (2004)
Jackass: The Movie (2002)
Just Friends (2005)
Love Actually (2003)
And here's the movies I decided not to consider because I just wasn't willing to classify them primarily as "comedies," but would almost certainly have been on the first list (again, two of these I personally didn't even particularly like) (the middle two):
Finding Nemo (2003)
Garden State (2004)
Lost in Translation (2003)
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003)
There you have it.
Bee Boy — Tue, 4/24/07 10:59pm
Oh, bravo! Just Friends, Ladykillers – excellent inclusions, both!
Brandon — Wed, 4/25/07 12:47am
A very fine list indeed. However, there's still not a movie here that I'd put above Anchorman, though to be fair, I haven't seen every single one of them. The 40 Year-Old Virgin still comes the closest to the top.
It will be interesting to see how well some of these movies survive Joe's five-year rule. I actually thought Wedding Crashers was pretty bad, and while I found Napoleon Dynamite funny at times, it was hard to like a film that had such genuine comtempt for its own characters. I think Borat's going to be hit hard by the five-year rule.
I've seen Anchorman about 7-8 times now, and enjoyed it immensely every single time, which to me is always a good sign for longevity.
Not to stir up even more trouble, but no one's even commented on my choice of The Big Lebowski as the best comedy in the last ten years. I'm assuming that wasn't about agreement, but rather a case of "Well, we've gotta deal with this truly egregious bullshit first, then we'll get to that smaller pile of crap."
Joe Mulder — Wed, 4/25/07 3:39am
I think Brandon may have missed the point of my list; this isn't a list of movies I (or people) like best, it's the 2002-2007 Comedies Hall of Fame.
It's like... okay: whatever Brandon, or I, or anyone, thinks of Borat, or Wedding Crashers, or The 40 Year-Old Virgin (to pick three), they all made more money, have a higher Metacritic score, and made (arguably) a bigger splash on the American cultural landscape than Anchorman. And, they're comedies. So, I have to put them on the list above Anchorman; I don't have a choice. It's that kind of list.
We may be working at cross purposes here; if Brandon says that Anchorman is his favorite post-Lebowski comedy, that's his opinion and there's no getting around it (and why would you want to?). However, it seems like Brandon's still determined to argue against the closest thing you can get to an avalanche of hard evidence that Virgin – and other movies on my list – are superior to Anchorman by any objective measuring stick.
And I think the reason no one's argued with the post-Lebowski time frame is that it's clearly the best comedy in ages (again, on any grounds other than personal preference. On personal preference, I might put School of Rock higher, but, that's something I'd generally keep to myself).
Bee Boy — Wed, 4/25/07 9:27am
When I think, as I often do, "I want to sit down with a nice post-1997 comedy tonight," Lebowski does not come to mind. It's enjoyable, quotable, and hilarious in many places, but... I guess I don't think of Coen movies as "comedies" so much as momentary glimpses into their exquisitely warped and intricately rendered world view. I'd probably pop in Wedding Crashers again.
I didn't bring it up because, given the routing Anchorman garnered, I saw no reason to step into the crosshairs. If you've got a lisp and everyone's throwing rocks at the kid with the lazy eye, you keep your mouth shut and go along!
(I do find it fascinating that Joe will give it "best comedy in ages" status, when it seems to me to violate his own standards for objective evidence. Sure, there's Lebowski Fest and everyone in our circle loves it, but in the world at large it's a cult curiosity at best.)
Joe Mulder — Wed, 4/25/07 12:58pm
[I]n the world at large it's a cult curiosity at best
I'm not sure that's necessarily true; plus, any movie that has its own "fest" and is quoted in almost every "Veronica Mars" episode jumps to the front of the line, in my view.
And I'm not really sure you could call Lebowski anything other than a comedy, really. I don't think "Coen Brothers movie" gets it's own category, as far as that's concerned. I certainly wouldn't call Miller's Crossing a comedy, even though parts of it are funny. I'm not sure I would even call Fargo a comedy. Maybe a dark comedy. But Lebowski? I don't see how you could call it anything else, if you were forced to call it only one thing (which, for the purposes of this discussion, is what I'm forcing you to do). I mean, the available categories here are pretty much the categories on the Blockbuster shelf: Comedy, Drama, Action, Horror, Foreign, and Documentary. If you have to call it one of those, it's a comedy.
As far as "best comedy in ages" goes, I figure 10-12 years is ages (it's, like, 10% of the time there have even been movies), and, nothing else from that time comes to mind (although I haven't looked at a complete list). Plus, now Lebowski is old enough that we can factor in "staying power," which is tough to judge even five years later (although I have to say Anchorman scores pretty high in that category). I'd go to war with Lebowski over anything on the list I put up. I think people are still watching it now with as much frequency as they ever did, and I think ten years from now people will be watching it with as much frequency as they do now.
And sure, maybe I'm falling into a Pauline Kael-esque "everyone I know" trap, but, I don't think so. People who know and love movies all know and love Lebowski.
Besides, like I said, this isn't a subjective list, this isn't about my favorite movies. This is an objective list that I happen to have assembled, and, now that I get a good look at it, it does look pretty darned definitive.
Come to think of it, I didn't even really assemble the list. The universe did. God did. So if Jameson's smarter than God, and Jesus, then I guess maybe Lebowski isn't the best comedy in ages. I sure wish I was smarter and better than Jesus, like Jameson just claimed to be.
Sorry. Boy, that took a turn quick, didn't it? Anyway, I could expand the list back to... when did Lebowski come out, '97? But I probably don't have the energy to do that in the next few hours.
Brandon — Wed, 4/25/07 2:39pm
Lebowski came out in 1998.
Joe, I realized your list was an objective one, I just didn't realize what the criteria were. Under those criteria, yes, that's the list.
The point I've been trying to make is simply that I can draw my own line between personal preference and objective appraisal - like I can say that Mountain Dew is my favorite drink, but I would not try to tout it in any best beverage contest, because, well, it's not. But with Anchorman, yes it's a personal favorite of mine, but I also truly believe that it's the most well-crafted, skillfully-made comedy in the last nine years. I'll argue that with anybody. Using your Hall of Fame scenario, if I've only got one vote to use on all of those movies you've listed, I'm giving it to Anchorman, because I truly believe it's the most deserving.
But again, under your proposed set of criteria, then yes, Anchorman falls much lower.
Now Lebowski... it's my favorite movie ever, so I probably have to recuse myself there. The objectivity hat doesn't fit very well.
Bee Boy — Wed, 4/25/07 2:40pm
"Is there such a thing as a Coen Brothers comedy?" is entirely subjective, and was never intended for the overall Comedy Hall of Fame discussion – sorry for being unclear on that.
Lebowski Fest sounds like the definition of "cult" to me, and even Veronica Mars itself acknowledges that Veronica Mars would kill to have the ratings of the after-hours test pattern. I love Veronica Mars and The Big Lebowski, along with everyone I know, but I don't pretend that either has achieved any kind of mass appeal.
I don't take issue with anything on your list, nor with the way your list was assembled – and certainly not with Lebowski, which I don't watch as often as I did ten years ago, but not for lack of loving it. I don't personally place any stock in mass appeal. To quote Socrates: "Yes, Pericles, but have you gotten a load of the many?" But it was a part of your Hall of Fame consideration, was it not? Because if you're just talking about "people who know and love movies" then we can focus our search on an entirely separate patch of the cinematic landscape – from which vantage point The Devil Wears Prada and Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle are just distant blips.
(Brandon, posting while I'm "Preview"ing – I hate that!) ;-)
"Mike" — Wed, 4/25/07 3:10pm
I am with Brandon here, I think Anchorman is the funniest comedy since Lebowski. I do think that 40-Year-Old Virgin is number 2, and I do agree with Brandon's "better film, slightly worse comedy" take on it. Now typically, I am a bit less of a fan of the cartoonish stuff Brandon adores (I like it, but I don't love it) – I prefer whimsicheartgoofywisefunny stuff like Ed and Scrubs which combine elements of cartoonishness with heart–there's not nearly as much heart in Anchorman as in 40-Year-Old Virgin. Also, both movies have some great asides and some really funny 'conversation joke' writing which I think is underrated.
But in the end, Anchorman is joyfully hilarious and the 40-Year-Old Virgin is hilariously joyful.
Joe Mulder — Wed, 4/25/07 5:04pm
Just two points: 1) I figure that public acclaim counts for some, but not all. Shrek 2 made huge, huge money and got pretty good reviews, and "people" liked it, and it would probably be considered a comedy, but wouldn't even sniff the list, because it was completely disposable, no one actually remembers anything that happened in it, and no one will be watching it in five years.
2) I didn't mean that the same exact people are watching Lebowski as often as they were ten years ago, just that people are watching it as much as they were ten years ago. I could even very easily be wrong about this, but, my point was that as many people watched Lebowski for the first time in 2001, say, as watched it for the first time in 2006. And as many people watched it for the sixth time in 2003 as will watch it for the sixth time in 2009. And so on.
By way of example, on my God list, Groundhog Day would rank ahead of Mrs. Doubtfire, because although the latter is still shown on TV once in a while and has some good laughs, and was well received, and made like $150 million more at the box office, Groundhog Day is, almost 15 years later, regarded by a large percentage of movie buffs as one of the best comedies of all time, and I think people will be watching it 50 years from now.
Bee Boy — Wed, 4/25/07 8:17pm
Full agreement there. I sincerely wouldn't argue if you said that Groundhog Day is the best comedy of all time and will in fact be included in the Time Capsule we fire into the cosmos as the evidence of what our species can accomplish in the realm of humor. I just can't imagine The Big Lebowski having the same cultural footprint as Groundhog Day – which is literally the comparison I was thinking of when I said everything I said before. Not sure why not; but I can't. Maybe it's because I think of the developed world kind of automatically associating Bill Murray with comedy comedy in a way that Jeff Bridges and John Goodman aren't. Maybe it's my own subjective hang-up. I sound like the guy who thinks My Wife and Kids is a better sitcom than The Office because it more closely fits the sitcom form.
I knew what you were saying about point #2 and I took a cheap shot, which I shouldn't have done. A cheap shot which I doubt was nearly as hurtful as invoking Shrek, but I regret it nonetheless.
Bee Boy — Thu, 4/26/07 9:33am
It occurred to me (in the shower, of course) that The Big Lebowski includes a very regular guy, sitting around talking about shit, surrounded by larger-than-life characters and situations. I think I'm onto something here!
Bee Boy — Mon, 5/18/09 10:22am
This Most Quotable Movies list has many things to argue with, but I thought the loyal subscribers to this thread would find it interesting that Anchorman hit #2. (Exceeded, of course, by that paragon of quotability... Aliens. I knew it was technically possible to make this list without putting Caddyshack first, but I think slotting Aliens in there is just being a douche.)
Brandon — Mon, 5/18/09 1:59pm
Yeah, the honor of the mention is dimmed quite a bit by several of the other choices. Seriously, who goes around quoting Heat?
Bee Boy — Mon, 5/18/09 4:20pm
Bill Hader, but other than that, no one.
Joe Mulder — Tue, 5/19/09 3:40pm
And to not even have LEBOWSKI on the list... I mean, clearly whoever wrote this list was working out some psychological issues, and was not, in fact, actually compiling a list of the most quotable movies.
Brandon — Mon, 8/7/06 12:43am
I was disappointed by it. There were some very good laughs, but they spent far too much screen time on the actual races, which just weren't funny. The sponsor stuff also fell flat. Some bad casting too - Michael Duncan Clarke isn't cut out for comedy, I have never found Jack McBrayer funny, and Amy Adams was criminally underused. And judging from the outtakes and the trailers I've seen on TV, they appear to have deleted some of the funniest scenes.
Brandon — Sun, 4/22/07 4:17am
Watched it a second time this weekend and had pretty much the same reaction - about 12-15 good laughs surrounded by a lot of dead spots. My disappointment was lessened this time simply by lowered expectations, but I'd still put it at about 2.5 stars (I went 3 on Netflix, since they won't give me a half-star option, the bastards!).
I stand by my comments on the races, the sponsors and the casting of MDC. As for McBrayer, I can no longer say I've never found him funny, but that's only because someone finally found the absolute perfect character for his one-note talent. I mean, seriously, go back and watch Talladega Nights again and tell me that's not Kenneth minus the superior writing!
TN's a perfectly serviceable comedy (most comedies would kill for 12-15 laughs), but unfortunately one that has to live in the shadow of Anchorman's greatness. And do not disparage Anchorman's greatness, or I will fight you. I will fight you all like a wild, rabid bear! And it will be glorious in all its ursine magnificence!!
In all seriousness though, I stand by my conviction that Anchorman is the best comedy of the last nine years. I say nine because if I went ten, then I'd have to give the nod to The Big Lebowski.
Bee Boy — Sun, 4/22/07 9:25am
We all got burned by this one. (I saw it with friends who were more forgiving; when everyone around you is laughing 25-30 times, you forget there are only 12-15 good laughs. Also, I love Jane Lynch.) But don't let that discourage you from eventually Netflixing Blades of Glory.
It features almost no dead spots at all, a truly workable story amidst the craziness, and – with the exception of Amy Poehler – a magnificent and thoroughly funny cast. I'd trade ninety Jenna Fischers for one Amy Adams, but she's still fantastic. (The fact that that number is in the double-digits and not the trillions should tell you all you need to know.) And Jon Heder, whom I have detested almost as deeply as those mock-ironic "Vote for Pedro" shirts, was really great.
It does include one moment where everyone flies off into the sky in a bizarre and wholly unnecessary twist of fantasy, which reminded me of the one eye-rolling moment of Anchorman (with the unicorn). But otherwise, quite solid compared with what you might expect.
Joe Mulder — Mon, 4/23/07 1:19pm
Anchorman over The 40-Year-Old Virgin? Oh, Brandon, you know I've long respected your comedic chops, but, that has to be the funniest thing you've ever written. Anchorman over The 40-Year-Old Virgin... stop! You're killing me!
I could probably list 20 other comedies in just the last five years that compare favorably with Anchorman, too.
Well, 10.
In fact, give me 24 hours; I'll be back.
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 2:19pm
I had a feeling this might happen...
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 3:00pm
I know no one asked – and Joe's list will be the more interesting one – but on a whim I consulted the database. Since 2001, I've seen 54 movies I liked as much or more than Anchorman (at the time; there are myriad reasons why this is an imperfect system). Of those, here are the comedies – favorite on top:
*-Is action-comedy still comedy?
I liked Anchorman more than Joe did. (My exasperation for the "frat pack" is still evaluated case-by-case on each individual movie.) I'm relatively certain he liked Anchorman as much as I liked Sideways, and vice versa. (Sideways is the first comedy on my list that fell below Anchorman.) It's probably second on his list after The 40-Year-Old Virgin (and it should be; it was great). Also, I'm more forgiving of things like Lucky Number Slevin – which, if I were rating it again today, would likely drop 5 points or so. Joe's list is indisputably the "real" list.
All that aside, what interests me is how few comedy comedy comedies are on the list. Which in turn reminds me how few there have been lately. I'm referring to something like Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. Could you deny that was a comedy? It leeched comedy out of every frame. It wasn't a comedy-slash-anything; comedy was its first, last, and only reason for existing. But, Borat? Well, it's sort of improvised satire-comedy with a reality edge. As is A Mighty Wind, albeit with a completely different reality and edge. For better or worse, that's what the Stiller/Ferrell/Wilsons team is doing: bringing back the old-school comedy. (Admittedly, it was never absent. It was just real real bad, e.g., Are We Done Yet? or anything with Jamie Kennedy.) So, despite the fact that Along Came Polly or – literally – Old School fall into their oeuvre, we still have them to thank because otherwise there'd be no Anchorman or 40-Year-Old Virgin and we'd see a hell of a lot less of Paul Rudd. (Which would be a criminal, criminal shame.)
Joe Mulder — Mon, 4/23/07 3:43pm
First of all: very good and interesting point.
Second of all, I'm thinking mainly about comedies from the last five years that that you could go to war with vs. Anchorman, not even necessarily movies I liked better. Anchorman certainly has a quotability factor that makes it tough to beat, but, was it really that good? I'm not convinced. So my list (which may well turn out to be far less definitive than Jameson's) may contain movies that I actually liked less than Anchorman but were more significant (like, in my opinion, Borat), and it may even contain movies I didn't see.
And I can't possibly give any ground on The 40-Year-Old Virgin, though.
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 4:24pm
Very good point about the quotability factor, etc. When composing my list, I thought, "Where the hell is Wet Hot American Summer?" Well, it's a few points further down the list. My guess is, as much as I love most of it, in the end it fails to really come together, so its rating is in the high 70s while its comedy rating is easily much higher. (As I said, myriad reasons.)
This is one of those situations that "agree to disagree" was invented for. (Feel free to disagree.) I'm imagining setting up a little experiment: get ten reasonable, English-speaking, relatively perceptive people who have seen both movies but never met Joe or Brandon. Have them hang out with Joe and Brandon together for at least five hours. Then ask them to pick which movie is favored by which guy. If fewer than eight people get the right answers, I'll sit through the entire Click DVD twice (regular and commentary).
My point is, these particular movies burrow directly into the comedy souls of the two gentlemen in question. Thus, you can both, in your own worlds, be absolutely, incontrovertibly right – and in each other's worlds, be entirely wrong. The comedy universe easily supports both viewpoints.
I doubt this comes a surprise to anyone, of course. And I still look forward to the Joe list.
(Off-topic – actually, back on the original topic, but thus... off-topic):
No discussion of Talladega Nights would be complete without a nod to Reilly's performance during the song that Jack Black and Will Ferrell performed at this year's Oscars. It was a brilliant song – more so because it made an excellent point about comedy's exclusion from the awards – but without Talladega Nights, it would have lacked the punch of its pinnacle of brilliance. Reilly, emerging from the audience in song:
So, +5 to Talladega Nights for that.
Brandon — Mon, 4/23/07 4:54pm
Now now, we both know that will never happen. Three comedies, that's possible. Seven comedies, there's an outside chance. But ten comedies? I'd like to see that! (End channeling of Mr. Burns)
There's much I'd like to add to this discussion, but I'm late in getting some lunch. I'll be back.
Joe Mulder — Mon, 4/23/07 5:25pm
It's early yet, but, the list of "Comedies of the Last Five Years Which I'd Take Into Battle Against 'Anchorman,' In Terms of Staying Power, Impact on the Culture and Overall Good/Bad Reviews, Leaving How Much I Actually Liked the Movie Completely Out of the Equation" is looking pretty small. I may have to concede an early skirmish to Brandon on this point (or, I may have to lift my self-imposed five year rule and open it up to the entire post-Lebowski era).
Plus, anyone's free to prefer Anchorman over The 40 Year-Old Virgin if they have the misfortune to have been born with such bizarre sensibilities; I'm saying that by any standard other than subjective personal preference, it's not even close.
(and maybe Brandon was only talking about subjective personal preference)
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 5:34pm
Reminds me of the great Norm MacDonald (and how thrilled was I to watch him slap Ethan Suplee's chubby doofus Scientologist face?):
"Ten great things about you, Danny? Sure, I can easily name five great things about you. Here are two great things about you: the one great thing about you is..."
It's beginning to look like I'll be ringside for some wild, rabid bear-fighting!
Brandon — Mon, 4/23/07 8:04pm
I'm inclined to say no, just because comedy is the second word in that hyphenate.
I think these are excellent insights, and ones that I wish I had made first. Though for me, it's less about the Frat Pack and more about the Second City Pack of Fey/McKay/Carrell, who have all done a great job of bringing that SC sensibility to the comedy mainstream without losing anything about what makes it so great. I'm particularly enamored with McKay - I've been drinking that Kool-Aid since 1995 - which is one of the reasons why Anchorman is like a dog whistle crafted specifically for my ears (I realize that doesn't quite work, but you get what I'm saying).
I'd be willing to make that bet too. This disagreement doesn't surprise me at all. I sensed a great disturbance in The Joe Force the minute I hit "Post Comments" Saturday night.
Yes and no. Certainly, Anchorman gets my post-Lebowski vote on personal preference. But I also admire its craft. Does The 40 Year-Old Virgin accomplish more in terms of character and story? Absolutely. I won't dispute that at all. I've even admitted to Jameson in an email that he probably still has in his possession (dated 9/5/05, JS) that Virgin is a better film. But that last word, to me, is the key. It's a better film, but not a better comedy. (Which may just cause both of you to throw up your hands and walk away at this point; I wouldn't blame you.)
I just think Anchorman is the funnier of the two. Not by a great margin; which is an important distinction to note here - it's not like I put Anchorman #1 in the last nine years and Virgin is 12th. It's more like 1 and 1a. But if you're asking me which one made me laugh harder and more often, it's Anchorman by a nose.
And honestly, that's my main criteria for a comedy. When I sit down to watch a comedy, the thing I want most is for it to make me laugh. I can certainly admire and appreciate the skill it takes to develop character and tell a story that makes sense while making me laugh, but in the end, it just doesn't do it for me at the same level. This is why I love The Simpsons, this is why I love 30 Rock, this is why I love The Big Lebowski and Raising Arizona. And this is why I love Anchorman. I'm partial to cartoony over three-dimensional. I prefer static characters to ones that go through a lot of growth. I realize this is veering back into personal preference territory. Oops.
Back to comedy. From a pure comedy-to-the-exclusion-of-all-else standpoint, I think Anchorman beats Virgin. Again, by a very narrow margin. I'll admit this is flying by the seat of my pants logic, but given that story and character are pretty vital parts of storytelling, there's something kind of thrilling about a movie that can say "Yeah, we're not gonna worry about that" and not die on the vine by the 60-minute mark (especially when so many others do). I think successfully not doing those things takes as much skill as doing them. Because without them, you have simply got to be flat-out fucking funny; that's all you have left.
That's all I got right now. Let the picking apart begin in 3... 2... 1...
Brandon — Mon, 4/23/07 8:07pm
Also, I'm looking slightly more forward to this than I am to this. Though it's very possible I'll change my tune based on the awesomeness of Seth Rogen.
Joe Mulder — Mon, 4/23/07 8:47pm
I understand what Brandon is saying, but, by his standard, I'd be forced to say that 90 Straight Minutes of Nothing But Crotch Hits, if it existed, was the greatest comedy of all time.
"Anchorman made me laugh harder so therefore it's superior as a comedy movie"? I certainly understand that, but, I had no idea that was where we were coming from. In that case, it's all subjective and I will be able to find no movies, post-Lebowski, that I'd put up against Anchorman.
But that doesn't mean I won't have a list going at some point.
Also, Norm? Sweet! I haven't watched any of last Thursday's stuff (except "Survivor") because I was out of town this weekend for a wedding (Gemelke's), so between Schmuck's Bait and Norm Macdonald, it's going to be one hell of a Monday Comedy Night Done Right!
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 9:01pm
I think the awesomeness of each of Katherine Heigl's individual breasts would probably have something to say about that. I get the distinct impression Joe has already decided he'll like Knocked Up even more than he liked The 40-Year-Old Virgin and – given the footage we've seen so far – I'm not inclined to argue. Good luck with that one.
I've found the comedy chemistry between Ferrell and John C. Reilly to be the least hilarious of any of his co-stars to date (possible exception: Chris Kattan). So I regard Step Brothers with skepticism, for now.
Bee Boy — Mon, 4/23/07 9:26pm
I figured as much, which is a relief because I struggled with Ocean's Eleven and the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. Defensibly action-comedies but just as easily categorized in action-adventure.
I'd agree that, generally, one can't get into wild rabid bear mode defending the overall quality of a comedy based specifically on what made them personally laugh the hardest. However, one's personal tastes will tint one's appreciation of all other elements of that movie. And, in an is-my-orange-your-purple sense, if a particular movie happens to synch up exactly with one's personal comic sensibilities, it creates a perfect storm – that comedy is going to seem better overall to the person it appeals to. Brandon, by his own admission, smells what Ferrell/McKay are cooking. This is what I was trying to get at before.
The 40-Year-Old Virgin gets its laughs from real-life emotions, relatable hang-ups and neuroses, and a bunch of regular guys sitting around talking about shit. If we were nominating an Olympic Regular Guys Sitting Around Talking About Shit team, I would send Joe – and he would win many gold medals. Brandon and I also appreciate this, of course, but it's not hard-wired in our DNA (to borrow a thoroughly meaningless term from TV blowhards).
The laughs in Anchorman stem from a zany, stentorian, bloviating egotist – a completely outsized character who blurts out absurd rants and generally makes an ass of himself. (No, I'm not going to say that's what Brandon is like.) Brandon is a student of comedy and his keen sense of timing and delivery make some jokes predictable. Absurd non-sequiturs like those in Anchorman surprise his comedy detector, and get a bigger laugh. Joe and I also love this, of course, but sometimes those laughs seem "too easy." "Manatee jokes" as the Family Guy writing team has come to call their quickie cutaway gags, adopting the name from the South Park episode which lampooned their seemingly randomized approach.
If you're a manatee guy who loves movie comedies for their larger-than-life characters who do and say things that are funnier than real life because they'd never happen in real life, Anchorman is the perfect storm. If you're more into jokes you can relate to, laughs that you could have hanging out with friends and family, humor that reflects some element of your own life, The 40-Year-Old Virgin is the perfect storm. And in that situation, it's all but impossible to be completely objective.
Brandon — Mon, 4/23/07 11:57pm
Wow. Thanks for detailing the viewpoints in such a lucid fashion. Nicely done.
I think this gets really close to the heart of the matter. I enjoyed that episode of South Park, but I'm also of the opinion that the "manatee joke" - and that's not quite what they do in Anchorman, but we'll roll with it for now - doesn't get the respect it should. Done well, it's not that easy. Recent seasons of Family Guy and even recent seasons of The Simpsons have illustrated this - there's a lot of trying and failing going on. It's a talent and a skill; if you can't agree with that, then we're definitely not going to see eye-to-eye on this whole thing.
So for me, making Anchorman takes as much talent and skill as it does to make The 40 Year-Old Virgin. Different talents and skill sets, but both admirable. I just happen to value the Anchorman skill set a little bit more.
If it existed in the context of a scripted, filmed comedy, then sure. I have little doubt that McKay/Ferrell or the Coen Brothers could make an all-crotch joke movie that would knock my socks off.
Bee Boy — Tue, 4/24/07 8:14am
Oh, I love the manatee jokes. It wasn't my intent to diminish either approach, only to illustrate the fine differences. And you're absolutely right – it's not easy to do well. But, as you said: 1 and 1a. It's those tiny fluctuations of preference that make the subjectivity/objectivity line so hard to find. Anyone can distinguish between 1 and 12.
I'll give your crotch hits movie a try, but I'm still not going to see NutsSaw!.
Brandon — Tue, 4/24/07 4:56pm
Speaking of Norm's appearance on My Name is Earl and crotch hits, I finally watched last week's episode, and I don't think I've ever simultaneously laughed and gone fetal with sympathetic pain so many times in one half-hour period.
Joe Mulder — Tue, 4/24/07 8:57pm
Okay.
Here's the list.
First, the comedies that, regardless of how much I liked them or how much I liked Anchorman, I'd take into battle against Anchorman if my life depended on it. As for the standard I'm using, think of it this way: say Anchorman is Robin Yount. Now say any other movie is any other baseball player. Now say I'm trying to decide which one of those players, Robin Yount or the other guy, is more deserving to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
If my life depended on it, I feel like I could make a pretty good case for the following deserving induction into the "Comedies From 2002-2007 Hall of Fame" before we let in Anchorman (assuming we do let in Anchorman. Which I do assume). Some of these movies I didn't even like, certainly not as much as Anchorman, but, that's not even what I'm judging by anymore. Here they are (in alphabetical order; an asterisk means I didn't actually see the movie):
The 40 Year-Old Virgin (2005)
Borat (2006)
The Devil Wears Prada (2006)*
Little Miss Sunshine (2006)
My Big Fat Greek Wedding (2002)*
Napoleon Dynamite (2004)
Old School (2003)
School of Rock (2003)
Shaun of the Dead (2004)
Sideways (2004)
Wedding Crashers (2005)
Not as big a list as I'd thought I might come up with. Here's the ones I'd put just below Anchorman on the same list (again alphabetical):
About a Boy (2003)
About Schmidt (2003)
Bad Santa (2003)*
Barbershop (2002)
Dodgeball (2004)
Harold & Kumar Go To White Castle (2004)
Hitch (2005)* [I debated about including this one, but, it was a huge mainstream hit and launched Kevin James's movie career, which could have far-reaching implications]
A Mighty Wind (2003)
Team America: World Police (2004)
Here's a partial list of comedies I personally prefer to Anchorman over that period of time (plenty of the ones on the above lists fall into that category as well), but that I wouldn't consider in Anchorman's league in a Hall of Fame voting kind of way:
50 First Dates (2004)
The Ladykillers (2004)
Jackass: The Movie (2002)
Just Friends (2005)
Love Actually (2003)
And here's the movies I decided not to consider because I just wasn't willing to classify them primarily as "comedies," but would almost certainly have been on the first list (again, two of these I personally didn't even particularly like) (the middle two):
Finding Nemo (2003)
Garden State (2004)
Lost in Translation (2003)
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003)
There you have it.
Bee Boy — Tue, 4/24/07 10:59pm
Oh, bravo! Just Friends, Ladykillers – excellent inclusions, both!
Brandon — Wed, 4/25/07 12:47am
A very fine list indeed. However, there's still not a movie here that I'd put above Anchorman, though to be fair, I haven't seen every single one of them. The 40 Year-Old Virgin still comes the closest to the top.
It will be interesting to see how well some of these movies survive Joe's five-year rule. I actually thought Wedding Crashers was pretty bad, and while I found Napoleon Dynamite funny at times, it was hard to like a film that had such genuine comtempt for its own characters. I think Borat's going to be hit hard by the five-year rule.
I've seen Anchorman about 7-8 times now, and enjoyed it immensely every single time, which to me is always a good sign for longevity.
Not to stir up even more trouble, but no one's even commented on my choice of The Big Lebowski as the best comedy in the last ten years. I'm assuming that wasn't about agreement, but rather a case of "Well, we've gotta deal with this truly egregious bullshit first, then we'll get to that smaller pile of crap."
Joe Mulder — Wed, 4/25/07 3:39am
I think Brandon may have missed the point of my list; this isn't a list of movies I (or people) like best, it's the 2002-2007 Comedies Hall of Fame.
It's like... okay: whatever Brandon, or I, or anyone, thinks of Borat, or Wedding Crashers, or The 40 Year-Old Virgin (to pick three), they all made more money, have a higher Metacritic score, and made (arguably) a bigger splash on the American cultural landscape than Anchorman. And, they're comedies. So, I have to put them on the list above Anchorman; I don't have a choice. It's that kind of list.
We may be working at cross purposes here; if Brandon says that Anchorman is his favorite post-Lebowski comedy, that's his opinion and there's no getting around it (and why would you want to?). However, it seems like Brandon's still determined to argue against the closest thing you can get to an avalanche of hard evidence that Virgin – and other movies on my list – are superior to Anchorman by any objective measuring stick.
And I think the reason no one's argued with the post-Lebowski time frame is that it's clearly the best comedy in ages (again, on any grounds other than personal preference. On personal preference, I might put School of Rock higher, but, that's something I'd generally keep to myself).
Bee Boy — Wed, 4/25/07 9:27am
When I think, as I often do, "I want to sit down with a nice post-1997 comedy tonight," Lebowski does not come to mind. It's enjoyable, quotable, and hilarious in many places, but... I guess I don't think of Coen movies as "comedies" so much as momentary glimpses into their exquisitely warped and intricately rendered world view. I'd probably pop in Wedding Crashers again.
I didn't bring it up because, given the routing Anchorman garnered, I saw no reason to step into the crosshairs. If you've got a lisp and everyone's throwing rocks at the kid with the lazy eye, you keep your mouth shut and go along!
(I do find it fascinating that Joe will give it "best comedy in ages" status, when it seems to me to violate his own standards for objective evidence. Sure, there's Lebowski Fest and everyone in our circle loves it, but in the world at large it's a cult curiosity at best.)
Joe Mulder — Wed, 4/25/07 12:58pm
I'm not sure that's necessarily true; plus, any movie that has its own "fest" and is quoted in almost every "Veronica Mars" episode jumps to the front of the line, in my view.
And I'm not really sure you could call Lebowski anything other than a comedy, really. I don't think "Coen Brothers movie" gets it's own category, as far as that's concerned. I certainly wouldn't call Miller's Crossing a comedy, even though parts of it are funny. I'm not sure I would even call Fargo a comedy. Maybe a dark comedy. But Lebowski? I don't see how you could call it anything else, if you were forced to call it only one thing (which, for the purposes of this discussion, is what I'm forcing you to do). I mean, the available categories here are pretty much the categories on the Blockbuster shelf: Comedy, Drama, Action, Horror, Foreign, and Documentary. If you have to call it one of those, it's a comedy.
As far as "best comedy in ages" goes, I figure 10-12 years is ages (it's, like, 10% of the time there have even been movies), and, nothing else from that time comes to mind (although I haven't looked at a complete list). Plus, now Lebowski is old enough that we can factor in "staying power," which is tough to judge even five years later (although I have to say Anchorman scores pretty high in that category). I'd go to war with Lebowski over anything on the list I put up. I think people are still watching it now with as much frequency as they ever did, and I think ten years from now people will be watching it with as much frequency as they do now.
And sure, maybe I'm falling into a Pauline Kael-esque "everyone I know" trap, but, I don't think so. People who know and love movies all know and love Lebowski.
Besides, like I said, this isn't a subjective list, this isn't about my favorite movies. This is an objective list that I happen to have assembled, and, now that I get a good look at it, it does look pretty darned definitive.
Come to think of it, I didn't even really assemble the list. The universe did. God did. So if Jameson's smarter than God, and Jesus, then I guess maybe Lebowski isn't the best comedy in ages. I sure wish I was smarter and better than Jesus, like Jameson just claimed to be.
Sorry. Boy, that took a turn quick, didn't it? Anyway, I could expand the list back to... when did Lebowski come out, '97? But I probably don't have the energy to do that in the next few hours.
Brandon — Wed, 4/25/07 2:39pm
Lebowski came out in 1998.
Joe, I realized your list was an objective one, I just didn't realize what the criteria were. Under those criteria, yes, that's the list.
The point I've been trying to make is simply that I can draw my own line between personal preference and objective appraisal - like I can say that Mountain Dew is my favorite drink, but I would not try to tout it in any best beverage contest, because, well, it's not. But with Anchorman, yes it's a personal favorite of mine, but I also truly believe that it's the most well-crafted, skillfully-made comedy in the last nine years. I'll argue that with anybody. Using your Hall of Fame scenario, if I've only got one vote to use on all of those movies you've listed, I'm giving it to Anchorman, because I truly believe it's the most deserving.
But again, under your proposed set of criteria, then yes, Anchorman falls much lower.
Now Lebowski... it's my favorite movie ever, so I probably have to recuse myself there. The objectivity hat doesn't fit very well.
Bee Boy — Wed, 4/25/07 2:40pm
"Is there such a thing as a Coen Brothers comedy?" is entirely subjective, and was never intended for the overall Comedy Hall of Fame discussion – sorry for being unclear on that.
Lebowski Fest sounds like the definition of "cult" to me, and even Veronica Mars itself acknowledges that Veronica Mars would kill to have the ratings of the after-hours test pattern. I love Veronica Mars and The Big Lebowski, along with everyone I know, but I don't pretend that either has achieved any kind of mass appeal.
I don't take issue with anything on your list, nor with the way your list was assembled – and certainly not with Lebowski, which I don't watch as often as I did ten years ago, but not for lack of loving it. I don't personally place any stock in mass appeal. To quote Socrates: "Yes, Pericles, but have you gotten a load of the many?" But it was a part of your Hall of Fame consideration, was it not? Because if you're just talking about "people who know and love movies" then we can focus our search on an entirely separate patch of the cinematic landscape – from which vantage point The Devil Wears Prada and Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle are just distant blips.
(Brandon, posting while I'm "Preview"ing – I hate that!) ;-)
"Mike" — Wed, 4/25/07 3:10pm
I am with Brandon here, I think Anchorman is the funniest comedy since Lebowski. I do think that 40-Year-Old Virgin is number 2, and I do agree with Brandon's "better film, slightly worse comedy" take on it. Now typically, I am a bit less of a fan of the cartoonish stuff Brandon adores (I like it, but I don't love it) – I prefer whimsicheartgoofywisefunny stuff like Ed and Scrubs which combine elements of cartoonishness with heart–there's not nearly as much heart in Anchorman as in 40-Year-Old Virgin. Also, both movies have some great asides and some really funny 'conversation joke' writing which I think is underrated.
But in the end, Anchorman is joyfully hilarious and the 40-Year-Old Virgin is hilariously joyful.
Joe Mulder — Wed, 4/25/07 5:04pm
Just two points: 1) I figure that public acclaim counts for some, but not all. Shrek 2 made huge, huge money and got pretty good reviews, and "people" liked it, and it would probably be considered a comedy, but wouldn't even sniff the list, because it was completely disposable, no one actually remembers anything that happened in it, and no one will be watching it in five years.
2) I didn't mean that the same exact people are watching Lebowski as often as they were ten years ago, just that people are watching it as much as they were ten years ago. I could even very easily be wrong about this, but, my point was that as many people watched Lebowski for the first time in 2001, say, as watched it for the first time in 2006. And as many people watched it for the sixth time in 2003 as will watch it for the sixth time in 2009. And so on.
By way of example, on my God list, Groundhog Day would rank ahead of Mrs. Doubtfire, because although the latter is still shown on TV once in a while and has some good laughs, and was well received, and made like $150 million more at the box office, Groundhog Day is, almost 15 years later, regarded by a large percentage of movie buffs as one of the best comedies of all time, and I think people will be watching it 50 years from now.
Bee Boy — Wed, 4/25/07 8:17pm
Full agreement there. I sincerely wouldn't argue if you said that Groundhog Day is the best comedy of all time and will in fact be included in the Time Capsule we fire into the cosmos as the evidence of what our species can accomplish in the realm of humor. I just can't imagine The Big Lebowski having the same cultural footprint as Groundhog Day – which is literally the comparison I was thinking of when I said everything I said before. Not sure why not; but I can't. Maybe it's because I think of the developed world kind of automatically associating Bill Murray with comedy comedy in a way that Jeff Bridges and John Goodman aren't. Maybe it's my own subjective hang-up. I sound like the guy who thinks My Wife and Kids is a better sitcom than The Office because it more closely fits the sitcom form.
I knew what you were saying about point #2 and I took a cheap shot, which I shouldn't have done. A cheap shot which I doubt was nearly as hurtful as invoking Shrek, but I regret it nonetheless.
Bee Boy — Thu, 4/26/07 9:33am
It occurred to me (in the shower, of course) that The Big Lebowski includes a very regular guy, sitting around talking about shit, surrounded by larger-than-life characters and situations. I think I'm onto something here!
Bee Boy — Mon, 5/18/09 10:22am
This Most Quotable Movies list has many things to argue with, but I thought the loyal subscribers to this thread would find it interesting that Anchorman hit #2. (Exceeded, of course, by that paragon of quotability... Aliens. I knew it was technically possible to make this list without putting Caddyshack first, but I think slotting Aliens in there is just being a douche.)
Brandon — Mon, 5/18/09 1:59pm
Yeah, the honor of the mention is dimmed quite a bit by several of the other choices. Seriously, who goes around quoting Heat?
Bee Boy — Mon, 5/18/09 4:20pm
Bill Hader, but other than that, no one.
Joe Mulder — Tue, 5/19/09 3:40pm
And to not even have LEBOWSKI on the list... I mean, clearly whoever wrote this list was working out some psychological issues, and was not, in fact, actually compiling a list of the most quotable movies.